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Author Topic: 3.0 / Mighty Protectors™ Basic Characteristics
Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3038
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 17, 2014, 20:54

Put me down as very much agreeing that some sort of Reputation score makes a lot of sense. It could easily be factored on things like the character's Cool, impacted by such things as Level or experience.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

bkadams
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 342
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 18, 2014, 09:54

Peter Quill: There's one other name you might know me by... Star Lord.

Korath the Pursuer: ...Who?

Yes, I agree! The Fame rules from Living Legends, with minor adjustments, would work fine for V&V3.0. But it also needs to work for characters who want to remain anonymous.

Star-Lord's initial lack of fame (and later recognition) amply demonstrates that some sort of Reputation/Fame system could add to the role-playing.

Jeff
Administrator
Posts: 1055
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 22, 2014, 09:27

The Living Legends system for this allows characters who wish to be anonymous to remain so by simply not getting press coverage.

I'm not so sure about including this in V&V3, though. Not everything which *can* be handled with a game mechanic is worth the hassle, and in my experience running LL I've concluded that this gets pretty close to the "too much work to be worth it" territory.

-Jeff

DSumner
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 1933
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 26, 2014, 12:29

Jeff, one more quick question. Are you planning on including a conversion document for converting Revised/2.1 to 3.0?

Jeff
Administrator
Posts: 1055
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 28, 2014, 09:33

Yes, of course.

-Jeff

IndieComic-
sFan
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 683
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 28, 2014, 12:16

Not sure if I am restating something I may have already stated before as I have not read or posted in this thread for a long time, but I have a big problem with removing the weight considerations from the carrying capacity and hit points. In my mind there were only a few RPGs that logically and accurately recognized that size/mass should be the primary determinant of carrying capacity and amount of physical damage one can take and these were BRP/Runequest and V&V. Unless you plan to make Strength either rooted in mass (which it does not sound like you are) or mass dependent on Strength score, I do not see the sense in going this route. In my mind this is as nonsensical as using a 'Charisma' score to determine hit points or ability to hit something accurately.
I do not in general like the idea of replacing more complex calculations with simple ability scores 'saves' because, while it may be faster, it is also lacking in logical consistency.

Jeff
Administrator
Posts: 1055
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 29, 2014, 22:47

"I have a big problem with removing the weight considerations from the carrying capacity and hit points."

It hasn't been 'removed', exactly. If a character has Size Change Larger (or Smaller), it will still affect their hit points and their carrying capacity in much the same way that you're used to.

"replacing more complex calculations with simple ability scores 'saves' ... may be faster, it is also lacking in logical consistency."

I'm not sure what you mean. The new save system is eminently logical and consistent. The old way of doing things was, frankly, a mess.

-Jeff

Tempest
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 384
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: September 30, 2014, 10:28

I will throw a hat into the ring here and state that, while logical consistency may be something desirable in real-life wargames, as far as pen-and-paper RPGs are concerned, I'm just as happy to have something that moves quick and profers no more than nominal opportunity for the damned rules lawyers to start filing claims.

AD&D 1.0 and 2.0 were (and still are) popular because a straight-forward, coherent rules system made it possible to move things along on a consistent basis; if you felt like doing the house-rules bit, the opportunity was certainly there with the game engine as open as it was. D&D 3+ are anathema with my group because the push to make things more "realistic" - i.e., complicated - made it so that the scraps, as I've stated before, had all the energy and drama of a forensic accounting audit.

I'm perfectly willing to give V&V 3.0 its due shot before rendering judgment. As countless others have noted, the 2.0 system worked fantastic for characters up to and including the X-Men/Teen Titans level, but started to get futzy when working with Thor/Superman-type characters. I'm putting some faith in Jeff and Jack's maturity in game design here that 3.0 will address those issues while retaining the core of what made the game so damn fun to begin with.

IndieComic-
sFan
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 683
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: October 1, 2014, 04:20

Quote from Jeff on September 29, 2014, 22:47
"I have a big problem with removing the weight considerations from the carrying capacity and hit points."

It hasn't been 'removed', exactly. If a character has Size Change Larger (or Smaller), it will still affect their hit points and their carrying capacity in much the same way that you're used to.

"replacing more complex calculations with simple ability scores 'saves' ... may be faster, it is also lacking in logical consistency."

I'm not sure what you mean. The new save system is eminently logical and consistent. The old way of doing things was, frankly, a mess.

-Jeff

I mean that realistically(I know...I know, that is a dirty word to most modern RPG fans) there are many things which should be rooted in more than one characteristic. Alcohol/poison resistance for example is rooted in physical fitness and body mass (and these two things should NEVER appear as a single attribute IMO) and how are you going to handle resisting mind control attacks? A save vs. "Intelligence" does not work because will power and intellect are two separate things and a save vs. the new "Cool" attribute also seems wonky because IMO it encapsulates too many different characteristics under this "Cool" stat (will power, Presence (of mind as well as the general 'animal magnetism'/leadership type traits), emotional stability etc.
I know that concessions sometimes have to be made in abstract game designs but I worry about these things nonetheless.

I agree that the old way of doing things was not better (or even as good overall) which is probably why people like me house ruled RPGs into unrecognizability (I know that is not a real word).

IndieComic-
sFan
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 683
Post Re: V&V 3.0™ Basic Characteristics
on: October 1, 2014, 04:36

Quote from Tempest on September 30, 2014, 10:28
I will throw a hat into the ring here and state that, while logical consistency may be something desirable in real-life wargames, as far as pen-and-paper RPGs are concerned, I'm just as happy to have something that moves quick and profers no more than nominal opportunity for the damned rules lawyers to start filing claims.

AD&D 1.0 and 2.0 were (and still are) popular because a straight-forward, coherent rules system made it possible to move things along on a consistent basis; if you felt like doing the house-rules bit, the opportunity was certainly there with the game engine as open as it was. D&D 3+ are anathema with my group because the push to make things more "realistic" - i.e., complicated - made it so that the scraps, as I've stated before, had all the energy and drama of a forensic accounting audit.

I'm perfectly willing to give V&V 3.0 its due shot before rendering judgment. As countless others have noted, the 2.0 system worked fantastic for characters up to and including the X-Men/Teen Titans level, but started to get futzy when working with Thor/Superman-type characters. I'm putting some faith in Jeff and Jack's maturity in game design here that 3.0 will address those issues while retaining the core of what made the game so damn fun to begin with.

Fully agree with your last paragraph. Fully disagree with your first two paragraphs. I would just dismiss the disagreement with a 'Viva Le Difference' except that AD&D was itself more complicated than almost any other RPG ever written! Tunnels and Trolls was not too much more 'realistic' but it was everything you (in my view) wrongly attribute to AD&D. Simple, open to house ruling and rule tweaking to achieve almost any degree of 'realism' or lack of such as one could want.

AD&D, on the contrary had a nonsensical d20 based THAC0 system, an even worse 'Hit Point' system (where the very term was poorly and overly ambiguously defined, adding to the 'increased with experience' nonsense), an entirely different percentile based system for some skills that were nonsensically defined as class-specific special abilities (i.e. thief skills), an entirely different 'Proficiency' system to deal with general skills(at first confined to weapon skills alone), a still completely different system for dealing with skills such as dwarven underground trap detection, the ludicrous and inappropriate 'fire and forget' magic system and a laughably bad 'save throw' system which provoked much confusion.

WoTC at least made an effort to clean this up, simplify and give the system some logical consistency regardless of what our nostalgia pushes us to conclude. D&D 3.5 was still not a great system but it was at least catching up to the 1980s somewhat.

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