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Author Topic: Invulnerability Question
Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3416
Post Invulnerability Question
on: October 11, 2018, 00:09

I'm trying to simulate a character with Invulnerability against all Energy types except one (let's say Flame).

Trying to do this by buying up Invulnerability against the other various sub-types (Electromagnetic, Energy Beam, Light, and Radiation) is way too expensive (10 CP for each sub-type, so 40 CP) whereas it costs only 20 to buy the whole Energy type.

In this case would it make more sense to just buy Invulnerability to Energy, with a Miscellaneous Modifier (perhaps -5) to reflect that it doesn't work against High Temperature (flame and heat)?

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

celestiale-
ditor
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 107
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 11, 2018, 08:30

Short answer: Yes. Note that High Temperatures is an entire Damage Subtype (with only one Damage Form), so I think Miscellaneous: Not Against High Temp (-5) or Not Against Fire/Heat (-2.5) are both technically appropriate (and also redundant in most cases, but you might have a home game where High Temp has more than one Damage Form).

celestiale-
ditor
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 107
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 11, 2018, 08:52

OTOH, Invulnerability to Energy is extremely powerful, because it covers so many damage Subtypes and offers huge savings over piecemeal Invulnerability. Therefore, it might also be more appropriate to say (-2.5) for "Not Against One Subtype."

The negative value of a limitation needs to be based on what it actually limits. With Invulnerability, the tipping point becomes the balance between Invulnerability to Onr Subtype and Invulnerability to All Types, except blah, blah. Once you start thinking about how the rules lawyers will abuse it, the "value" falls into place.

On reflection, I think Biochemical and Entropy get (-5) for "Not Against One Subtype," and the others are only (-2.5) per Subtype, with the max combo being (-7.5) even in the most customized home games.

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3416
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 11, 2018, 22:04

Makes sense. Thanks, celestial.

Although it isn't that clear from the rules, my GM screen shows High Temperature as a Sub-Type having both Flame and Heat under it.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3416
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 16, 2018, 20:55

I have a new Invulnerability question as it interacts with Armor Piercing:

To me the wording is confusing where it says (on p. 86, emphasis mine):

Armor Piercing also immunizes the affected damage points from
the damage reduction effect of Invulnerability. If the target has
both Armor and Invulnerability, apply Armor Piercing to Armor first
– and then apply any unused points of Armor Piercing to any
remaining damage against the target’s Invulnerability.

To me the first part sounds like the Armor Piercing is "immunized" against Invulnerability, which to me would mean that Armor Piercing cuts right through Invulnerability, for practical purposes ignoring it and slicing through it like a hot knife through butter.

That last part, though, says you "apply" any part of AP left over (which I suppose would be rare, as usually the Armor score is greater than the Armor Piercing portion) "against" the Invulnerability.

So is it only the portion of Armor Piercing that goes over the value of Armor (if one had, say, 6 points of Armor Piercing and there was only 5 pts of Armor) that is applied directly to Invulnerability? But most of the time AP ignores Invulnerability?

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

Hireling
High-Powered Superhero
Posts: 90
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 17, 2018, 12:26

The confusion arises from the use of the word "immunizes." Especially in this context:

Armor Piercing also immunizes the affected damage points from the damage reduction effect of Invulnerability. If the target has both Armor and Invulnerability, apply Armor Piercing to Armor first – and then apply any unused points of Armor Piercing to any remaining damage against the target’s Invulnerability.

Immunizes gives the impression that the remaining damage--after applying protection--totally ignores Invulnerability. However, I think the key lies in the phrase "apply any unused points of Armor Piercing to any remaining damage against the target's Invulnerability."

A much better way to put it would be “If the target has both Protection and Invulnerability, subtract its Protection from Armor Piercing first and then apply the damage reduction of Invulnerability. If there are any remaining points of Armor Piercing and this value greater than the damage after applying Invulnerability, use this value as the final damage.”

Example: An attack with Armor Piercing 4 deals 8 damage against a target with Protection 1 and Invulnerability.

    Step 1. Subtract target’s Protection from attacker’s Armor Piercing. 4-1=3.
    Step 2. Subtract the remaining value from the damage. 8-3=5
    Step 3. If target has Invulnerability, divide damage by 4 rounding down. 5/4=1.25, rounded down = 1.
    Step 4. Compare the unused points of Armor Piercing from Step 1 with the damage remaining from Step 3. Use whichever amount is greater. In this case, 3>1, so the final damage dealt is 3.

I'm positive there is an even cleaner way to express this, but this is the best I could come up with. It's still an extremely convoluted interaction. A better solution would be to have Armor Piercing only work vs Protection, and create another Ability Modifier that changes Invulnerability's damage reduction from 1/4 to 1/3 for 2.5 CP, 1/2 for 5 CP, and completely ignores it for 10 CP, or something like that.

Jeff
Administrator
Posts: 1263
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 18, 2018, 14:32

If there are any points worth of Armor Piercing left over, after applying the target's Armor, then those points immunize an equal number of points of damage against the effects of Invulnerability.

Example 1: Hypertron's laser does 9 points of Energy damage, and has 3 points of Armor piercing. The target, Madax, has 5 points of Energy armor and is Invulnerable to Energy. 9 damage minus (5 armor-3 a.p.) = 7 damage gets through. ALL of the Armor Piercing was used up in reducing Armor, so Invulnerability applies against all 7 of the remaining damage points. (7/4, rounded down) = Madax takes 1 damage.

Example 2: Hypertron's laser does 9 points of Energy damage, and has 6 points of Armor piercing. The target, Madax, has 3 points of Energy armor and is Invulnerable to Energy. 9 damage minus (2 armor - 2 a.p.) = 9 damage get through, AND 4 points or armor piercing remain. So, of that 9 damage, 4 points go straight through (immunized from Invulnerability by Armor piercing) while the remaining 5 points are divided by 4 and rounded down as per the usual Invulnerability rules. 4 + (5/4, rounded down) = Madax takes 5 damage.

Sorry for the confusion. I've added these examples to the Errata page.

-Jeff

Hireling
High-Powered Superhero
Posts: 90
Post Re: Invulnerability Question
on: October 18, 2018, 16:17

Thank you for taking the time to provide this new example, Jeff. 🙂

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