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Author Topic: 2.9 General Questions
Paragon
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 130
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 11:43

Quote from bkadams on April 12, 2017, 07:44
Majestic wrote:

How would one reflect Heightened Strength, with a character who has both Heightened Strength (a solid, impressive physical specimen, on their own), combined with more Heightened Strength that they gain from their Armor?

Using "Advanced Customization" (see 2.2.16.7 on p. 25), the player simply buys Ht. Strength twice: the first with no modifiers and the second with the Gear modifier (or the Multi-Function Gear modifier, if it's from a powered armor suit, as your question suggests). The Ht. Strength with the Gear modifier can be broken, the Ht. Strength with no modifiers can only be affected by abilities like Siphon or Transmutation.

Example:

Ht. Strength: +10 = 10 CPs (or just shift the points into Strength)
Ht. Strength: +20 (20), Multi-Function Gear: Power Suit (-2.5) = 18 CPs

Total Ht. ST = +30
Total CP cost = 28

Hope this helps,
BKA

In practice, doesn't that mean that you can get all of the savings for applying a limitation while only having to deal with it on part of the power; and at the other end, if you do that with some kind of an advantage, paying the whole price only though its only helping part of the power?

Paragon
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 130
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 11:46

Quote from bkadams on April 12, 2017, 11:04
Paragon wrote:

Can someone unpack this one a bit more for me? I've looked at Power Blast and the Activation Power modifier, and they don't seem to relate to each other, and if they do the latter seems like its supposed to make it a limitation from the cost modifier. If it does do what Majestic seems to be saying it does, I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't do it, since you can presumably just turn it off when you need to do a recovery and the cost savings in Power is so large. This makes me think I'm completely misunderstanding this question (and thus, the answer).

If you wanted to save PR, an alternative to the Activation Power is to simply make your Power Blast cost 0 PR for +2.5 CPs. Either way, it doesn't take much to save power on Power Blasts.

That's a fair cop, but Majestic seemed to suggest it was a break even on cost, and I was having trouble picturing why you'd do it the other way if that was the case. At least in the reduced cost, it costs something.

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3194
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 12:18

Power Blasts for PR=0
Yes, it's a break-even on cost. I see where I hadn't spelled out the modifier completely; it would more accurately be called Power Requirement: Activation Power. It's at the bottom of the first column on p. 100, under the modifier "Power Requirement" where It says:

Activation Power
To modify an ability so that it only costs Power when it’s initially activated, double its PR. There is no cost adjustment.

2x Heightened Strength
As for the different Heightened Strengths (one natural, and the other part of the armor): thanks for the help on that by pointing out Multi-Function Gear, bk; that helps explain it (and I don't know how I missed that) As I'm converting an existing 2.1 character, reflecting the two types of Heightened Strength is the most accurate way of depicting the character. It looks like the +2.5 per item would be in addition to the +5 each item gets for being Gear (which makes sense, since it is more vulnerable than something without this modifier).

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

bkadams
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 472
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 12:38

Paragon wrote:

In practice, doesn't that mean that you can get all of the savings for applying a limitation while only having to deal with it on part of the power; and at the other end, if you do that with some kind of an advantage, paying the whole price only though its only helping part of the power?

I'm not totally sure that I understand your question. Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3194
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 12:50

Quote from Alienist on April 11, 2017, 18:25

Quote from Majestic on April 11, 2017, 15:26
I'm not clear on one thing with regard to Heightened Senses: what does it cost to keep them the same sense level, but to add more things that a particular sense detects?

For example, my old PC Majestic has (built into his Armor) some Heightened Senses. His HUD (heads-up display) gives him infrared vision and sonar. I get how to add the modifiers for 'Ranged Sense' and 'Global Sense', but - if I make it so he can sense each of these at Full (which is the default normal level) - and since they all give him the details and data visually, isn't there some cost to add the fact that he can now (in addition to the normal visual stimuli) detect the following?

- Light, Infrared
- Motion
- Shapes
-Sound, Subsonic
-Sounds, Ultrasonic

Surely there's some cost to adding five more things he can detect with his vision?

If i'm reading Heightened Senses correctly, each type of detection listed is purchased individually without consideration to any similar senses you may possess.

Well, if that's the case (and I don't see where it actually says that), Heightened Senses like the one my character Majestic has would have become exponentially expensive.

Let me explain.

In 2.1, he has an ordinary "Heightened Senses". He has a heads-up display, as well as sonar and infrared vision. It gives a bonus to his detect scores when applicable.

About 5 years ago, I went to Gary Con where Jeff was going to run a 3.0 adventure, and he converted PCs for the two of us that were going. Jeff wasn't able to make it, but he'd still converted my PC Majestic. Of course, this is a much earlier iteration of the rules, but the basics are still the same. Many of the powers and BCs worked out exactly the same or very close. His Heightened Senses? Jeff wrote those as:

HEIGHTENED SENSES: 360 Degree Full Sonar, Full Infrared Vision.

For cost, he made it 15 CP.

Now I've converted the character using the 2.9 rules, and I have everything but the Heightened Senses figured out. I have the maximum for a character of his power level (57 points) allocated, but I'm not sure if even 57 points will be able to cover the three basic things I need his visual senses to do.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3194
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 13:04

Quote from bkadams on April 12, 2017, 07:44
Majestic wrote:

How would one reflect Heightened Strength, with a character who has both Heightened Strength (a solid, impressive physical specimen, on their own), combined with more Heightened Strength that they gain from their Armor?

Using "Advanced Customization" (see 2.2.16.7 on p. 25), the player simply buys Ht. Strength twice: the first with no modifiers and the second with the Gear modifier (or the Multi-Function Gear modifier, if it's from a powered armor suit, as your question suggests). The Ht. Strength with the Gear modifier can be broken, the Ht. Strength with no modifiers can only be affected by abilities like Siphon or Transmutation.

Example:

Ht. Strength: +10 = 10 CPs (or just shift the points into Strength)
Ht. Strength: +20 (20), Multi-Function Gear: Power Suit (-2.5) = 18 CPs

Total Ht. ST = +30
Total CP cost = 28

Hope this helps,
BKA

Ouch, if I'm now seeing this correctly, you're saying that the Gear modifier is -5, but the Multi-Function Gear: Power Suit modifier is only -2.5.

Does this take the place of the linked modifier as well?

Because on the surface, just comparing the two, it doesn't make any sense that normal Gear (-5) would give you more benefit (double) compared to Multi-Function Gear, which has a greater chance of a system/component failing.

Unless I'm missing something.

BTW, if the above is true, then that needs to be added into the rules, because I don't believe it actually says that the +2.5 replaces the +5 Gear modifier.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

Paragon
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 130
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 16:08

Quote from bkadams on April 12, 2017, 12:38
Paragon wrote:

In practice, doesn't that mean that you can get all of the savings for applying a limitation while only having to deal with it on part of the power; and at the other end, if you do that with some kind of an advantage, paying the whole price only though its only helping part of the power?

I'm not totally sure that I understand your question. Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Sure.

Let's say you have have two characters, who are both acquiring 30 points of Enhanced Strength.

Character One has his Enhanced Strength entirely because of a pair of power bracers; if the bracers are wrecked, he's lost his whole Enhanced Strength. He takes this as Gear, so he gets 5 points back.

Character Two has 20 points of Enhanced Strength on himself, and 10 points because of his power bracers. If the power bracers get wrecked, he still has 20 points of Enhanced Strength. But since 10 points come from the bracers, he can still take the 5 point rebate for Gear.

Seems to me that character One has paid as much for a power that is, in practice, much more easy to remove from him than character Two, but is otherwise identical.

Like I said, this is always a problem with partially limited powers in a system that applies limits and advantages in a simple adder/subtractor method, just like there's something of an issue with the fact that the higher value a power is, the less proportionately a limitation saves for you, and the cheaper an advantage is. There's no easy way around it I can see while using subtractors and adders rather than multipliers and divisors.

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3194
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 12, 2017, 19:24

In your example, Paragon, I believe it would work like this:

Character One
Heightened Strength: +30; Gear: Total Cost: 25 CP

If somebody takes the bracers, or they get wrecked, he loses all 30 of the extra strength.

Character Two
Heightened Strength: +20; Total Cost: 20 CP
Heightened Strength: +10; Gear: Total Cost: 5 CP

So the character is getting the same amount for the same cost. The only difference I can see is that, with Character Two, he has potentially two ways of losing his bonus. The first one could be absorbed or nullified, and the second one could be taken away or wrecked. If one of those happens, he's still going to have the other.

So the first one (Character One) has an all or nothing for when he loses his enhanced strength. The second one (Character Two) has two ways of losing his, but each one doesn't take the full amount, so he'll likely still have some of his Heightened Strength.

I can see how Character One is slightly more vulnerable, but you could also look at it that if they were both exposed to some alien beam or high tech that steals abilities/superpowers, Character One loses nothing, while Character Two loses most of his augmented strength.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

Paragon
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 130
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 13, 2017, 15:25

The problem with that is things that can break your gear are much more common than things that can nullify powers, and the latter is just as likely to be gear as powers anyway (at least the costs under Siphon are the same). On the other hand, anyone can break Gear, and there's a whole (probably uncommon) power for controlling it. So it seems like the purely Gear oriented guy is still far more vulnerable than the guy who just has the Gear as a small booster, while still paying the same cost.

Majestic
Cosmic Superhero
Posts: 3194
Post Re: 2.9 General Questions
on: April 14, 2017, 11:05

I suppose the Gear guy is more vulnerable. It will be interesting to see how easy it is in 3.0 to actually break another's gear, or take it away.

V&V GM and player since 1982 (my current campaign is 22 years old); also run West End Games d6 Star Wars monthly, as well as the occasional The One Ring and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game

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