Monkey House Games

While a 3rd edition of "V&V" doesn't seem to be immediately on the horizon, it's that prospect which perhaps excited me most when I first learned that Jeff and Jack had re-acquired the rights to the game. To me, there's something especially intriguing about original creators revisiting their work again decades later. For the same reason I was very excited to see Mike Grell go back to DC's "Warlord" last year and even (while it's stretching the concept a bit) to see Neal Adams' "Batman: Odyssey" mini-series.

This got me to thinking about what I'd like to see if a 3rd edition of "V&V" were ever published. And sure, I have plenty of my own specific ideas and preferences. But for the purposes of discussion on this forum, I thought I'd get at the topic in another way: by looking at "Champions."

Before the "Marvel Super Heroes" RPG was published by TSR in 1985, it was my personal experience that there was this pretty distinct geographic split in the United States when it came to super hero RPGs. On the east coast, THE game was "V&V." But when my family moved from Washington, D.C., to California in the early 1980s, the only super hero RPG anyone seemed to play there was "Champions." So I played both games, and have kept all those materials in a closet to this day (mystifying my wife, who'd only ever heard the term "D&D" as a pejorative growing up). As new editions of "Champions" were released in 1989 and 2000 and the new 6th edition in 2009, I've continued to buy a few of those books here or there, "for old time's sake." As a result, I've formed opinions about what has worked and what has not worked when bringing out a new edition of a classic super hero RPG from the early 1980s. In the interst of generating some discussion, here's my list:

What Works:

1. Hard Back Format. There is simply no comparison between my staple-bound, soft cover, 80 page 2nd edition "Champions" rule book (which came in a box) from 1982, and the 300 page hard back 6th edition released last year. The new edition is much easier to read, and harder to damage incidentally. From other posts on this forum, I infer that many people would prefer to maintain the 'old-school' staple bound 80 page format for "V&V," too, for nostalgia's sake. But I would be disappointed by that.

2. Updating the Villains/Universe. One of the greatest strengths of "Champions" today, I think, is that various publishers and creators have updated the villains and the universe with each new edition over the last 25 years. That in and of itself is interesting to long-time fans like me. But even more intriguing, I think, is that the current publishers have kept alive that past as history in the "Champions" universe. So the heroes and villains and institutions in their game world all have this 30 years history of battles fought and lost, characters killed, enmities created and relationships formed and broken. Fascinating stuff, I think. I really hope that Jeff and Jack do something similar with V&V.

3. Few Rules Changes. The HERO system in 6th edition in "Champions" is still very recognizably the same system as was used back in 1983, and I appreciate that. If I wanted D20 super heroes, I could buy "Mutants & Masterminds." That being said, I personally would welcome the addition of non-random character generation rules (at least as an option?) into any 3rd edition of "V&V."

4. Sourcebooks Over Adventure Modules. I definitely applaud the trend toward the publication of sourcebooks as supplements for RPGs over the more traditional adventure modules. As someone who no longer plays RPGs, they're much more interesting to read I've found.

What Doesn't Work.

1. Page Count Creep. I think that this applies to almost all RPGs that have antecedents dating back to the 1980s, but it's staggering to see that to play 2009's 6th edition of "Champions" one needs a 400+ page "Hero System Rulebook" as well as the 300 page "Champions" game book. And maybe also the 100+ page "Powers" supplement and, if you want to play in the Champions Universe, then that 300+ page sourcebook, too. Compare that to my 80 page rulebook for 2nd edition "Champions," which was a full game in a box. "Sometimes less is more," I think.

QED

What do you think?

As someone who still does play RPGs and runs then on a weekly basis...I need adventures! Adventures can be sourcebooks if they are written properly and one thing i LOVED about V&V is the amount of adventure support available. The primary focus of the game HAS to be on those who will use it for its intended purpose...as a GAME.

Allen

2nd try (my first post got lost when the forums seemed to crash); anybody else finding the MHG forums to be like slogging through molasses lately?

Well written, dan!

I tend to agree with Allen. While sourcebooks are nifty, adventures are really where it's at. I've got 20+ players that play V&V at my house currently (two different campaigns with different players and GMs), and I can only imagine a few of them even perusing a sourcebook. OTOH, a published adventure would likely end up being played by most of them. To truly expose V&V to the most people means getting adventure modules out to the public.

I am not a tremndous fan of hardcovers. More durable yes...and more expensive. One of the true joys of V&V 2.1 is its inexpensive price tag which actually has friends considering buying it.

I do agree that the rules should remain fairly consistent, although some modernization is to be desired. And I totally agree about page count...that is the biggest reason I have not bought Hero 6. I just can't justify spending that much on a series of hardcovers.

Quote from Acrobatic Flea on November 23, 2010, 09:07
I don't see that it would be economical to release a hardback version of V&V if the page count didn't increase (which it doesn't need to - unless you include background chapters of fluff on the 'official' universe, example villains etc).

But wholeheartedly support the call for more sourcebooks (over adventures)

Agreed on every count.

But then again, I really don't see the need for a 3rd edition; 2.1 has just arrived and until the dust settles I think it would be confusing for newcomers (and oldtimers as well, maybe).

I have 'switched off' from 6th edition Chapmions and M&M 3rd edition simply beacuse I ahve invested so much in the prvious iterations that I begrudge doing so again.